Pursuing Excellence: Where do you draw the line?
Posted by Travis on February 6, 2008A big discussion arose today in the hall outside of my office with 6-7 coworkers today that lasted about 20 minutes. It was centered around whether we should have tryouts for a “team” that was reconfiguring as we head into our new facility. Do we do something as the Church like that, knowing that some people who try will probably not make the cut? Is it wrong for a church ministry to make people audition for something? I was (rather strongly) suggesting that we “pursue excellence” and that individual involvement should not supersede the quality of the service for 250 or so people in this instance. Let me say this now, I am NOT suggesting that I am right, I may be right or wrong, I am just telling you what I think. I am curious what the world thinks. (By world I mean “the seven people who read this blog.” Unfortunately, three of you were in this conversation.)
We toss around terms like pursuing excellence, usually not knowing what WE really mean when we say it. I have decided that pursuing excellence for me is: doing the best you can with the resources that you have. Excellence is relative to culture and resources especially. Think about the widow’s mite or the parable of the talents. Its not HOW much you have that matters, its how well you use WHATEVER you have that matters.
So I guess I should rephrase the question now. In a churches pursuit of excellence, where should it draw the line with involvement? Is it right for a representative of Christ to potentially really disappoint someone who is really excited about participating in something? Also, is the same thing true in all situations? Do you treat vocalists for your adult centered service with the same care that you might with volunteers in a different ministry in the church?
I was discussing this later with one of our AWESOME ministry directors, something that worries me is the potential that the church is being dishonest in the name of compassion & grace rather than being truthful to people. I think about at least three American Idol tryouts I saw where he/she told a story of their church being super positive, loving their voice and encouraging them to even pursue careers in singing. Now these people, who clearly couldn’t sing, stand in front of these judges thinking, “well, my church lied to me, these pros think I am horrid.” Isn’t it the role of the church to help people find their spiritual gifts and talents? That defineitly would look different from just letting people do what they most wanted to do.
Anyway, this could go on forever, each question leads to another question….
So, talk amongst yourselves, what do you think? What do you do?
-Travis
Travis,
Hmm .. with your definition of pursuing excellence, part of me would say that “in this case”, the person should be allowed to be on the team .. because I really don’t think that age demographic gives a rip if someone isn’t “on beat” or not .. unless it’s so bad it hinders their worship. In this case, I don’t know that it would.
A great question came up in the hall - “are they teachable”? Has anyone ever pulled a person under their wing and said “this isn’t quite right, but with some help, you can make it”.
How many “average” American Idol contestants were passed onto Hollywood because they had “potential” and “with some help” they might could do something?
At the same time, you are right about having people find their gifts - we need to have the RIGHT people on the bus, and in the CORRECT seats.
It’s a tough situation - tryouts aren’t all that bad, and I think they are important. It’s a sticky situation here because you’re taking a team who has already been faithful and active, and making them “start over”.
It’s one thing to say “we’re starting a new ministry, and we’re opening up for auditions” .. it’s another to say “we’re re-evaluating everyone - nobody is safe, and we have to make you try out”.
Glad I’m not making that call - although I guess I have some input, and ultimately, I’ll be making similar calls soon.
I’m gonna post this on my blog and try to get this conversation swarming today!
Fred
[...] co-worker and friend, Travis Paulding, has posted a great blog called “Pursuing Excellence - Where do you draw the line“? on his blog. Here’s a [...]
It all falls to your definition of Excellence.
If you are seeking “excellence in Worship” then you have specific benchmarks that you have to measure your efforts to; music written on a page, key changes, rhythms, chords on a chart, decibles not to be exceeded, and smooth transitions and vidoe that start and end on time. people in the right places and prepared to pour out their gifts to the benefit of the assembled to the point that it brings Glory and honor to God. Sounds great but people will never be perfect…
The only thing perfect is God’s love for us and the two greastest commandments refer specifically to His love. Love the lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
It should be not a head issue but a heart issue… focus on the love that is behind their gift and how the love they feel for their savior shuld be poured out-through their efforts- intothose attending. The effort needs to be to clearly define the excellence you are seeking, bring them to the same understanding that you have and change their hearts. Either they will step up their efforts or they will step away from the ministry. Been there and done that, WOW waht a ride.
Sorry, that was a journey unto itself.
Short answer- take them all with you to the next assignment; and to the level…sharpen your focus on Christ, His passion and His humility and pursue pure hearts to be more like like His.
Well, I can’t honestly imagine any of the musicians we’ve had playing on Sunday A.M. not ‘making it’ in the try-outs, personally - we’ve got a ridiculous amount of talent in our church currently. I do, however, think that one aspect of doing things ‘excellently’ is ‘maintaining excellence’, and one aspect of that it occasionally putting the #2 or #3 person for the job into the #1 spot on occasion to give them the experience they need to eventually become the #1 person in the future, in the case that #1 one day moves on. This is a lesson I’ve had to learn the hard way working with a youth team, as - in the past - I have raised up a great team, but relied upon all my #1 players, not raising up, or challenging the younger, less experienced potential talent in our midst…then the team graduated, nearly all at once, and we went from having a GREAT youth praise team to ALL novices with little-to-no experience. Now I try to always have 2nd & 3rd chair folks in the mix, rotating them in on occasion, knowing that their part in the big picture will not be quite as excellent as the 1st chair player, but that in the future, when they take 1st chair, it will be.
Man, I should have edited that. My brain does poorly in the A.M. I need my coffee.
Shannon,
Actually, it makes perfect sense to me! Maybe because I’ve HAD my coffee. I think you hit a great point … in your example, we’re talking about a musical band .. so one could say:
“Excellence in MINISTRY and Excellence in MUSIC are not necessarily the same thing”.
In other words, in your case the music may have been “less-than-excellent”, but the method and leadership behind it, in my opinion, fosters “excellence in ministry”.
FM
Persuing excellence is a matter that the church is in desperate need of. When Moses was commissioned to “build the temple of the Lord” he was told to allow “skilled” people to perform the work. Now the question arises as to how “important” a particular job is . . . and that’s a tough one.
I believe that if a church member is cleaning the toilets, they are helping to build the kingdom of God. There is absolutely no area of church work/ministry that is second-rate. “Every joint supplying - being FITLY joined together” - is how the church is edified and built up.
So my thoughts? Let those who are skilled be the ones who provide the “supply” - as long as their hearts are fully committed to the task and to the Lord. And let those who are NOT skilled be a part that is being trained to BECOME skilled, like Shannon said. We have so little of that, and we need it so bad.
I guess the heart is the most important part. I have seen too many people put in a position of “leadership” because they had a natural ability, but their hearts weren’t right. Very often great harm can be caused because of that. In that case, I’d take a passionate, teachable, unskilled person who’s heart is right before God, becuase God’s grace is so awesome that He would make it work. And I would have close supervision to help that person grow into the position.
All this rattling on is to say this: God desires for skilled people (people who “make the cut”) to provide first - training up those who aren’t skilled to rise up to take their own place in the process. We usually have one or the other, but rarely both.
Thanks for bringing this to light, Travis. I think this is one of the most essential questions churches need to ask themselves over and over and over. I think of Jesus and how he dealt with people, and in the end it was accountability. He held a standard for each call he made. For the rich young ruler who wanted to step up and be “on the team,” Jesus laid out a standard and the guy couldn’t hack it. It wasn’t a question of talent or gifting. It was a question of sacrifice and willingness. With his disciples, Jesus constantly laid out the standard and questioned their motives. They kept coming back, and he kept them on the team. In the end Judas quit because he wasn’t willing to do things Jesus’ way anymore. He wasn’t willing to sacrifice.
I think in terms of the “try outs” you’re talking about there is some relevance here. If someone does not have the gifting, but is willing to sacrifice and work and try, then they deserve a spot on the team. We (the church) have a responsibility to clearly lay out the standard and the expectation and let the person decide if they really want to be a part of that. Its not so much about being on a worship team or being a singer as much as it is taking a responsibility to help people encounter God through worship - that could mean being a stage hand or a greeter or a singer. Make sure people know what they are committing to and most likely you want have to “cut” anyone - they’ll make the decision for you. Are they committing to being in a band, serving in one role; or are they committing to be on a ministry team, serving in many roles for one common purpose?
travis:
i haven’t been able to read through all of the responses, but i did have one thought… i think its ok to pursue excellence as long as we don’t sacrifice people for the sake of program. i’m not saying that’s what’s happening here, but in working through these questions, i always try to consider the bigger picture - the bigger goal - the bigger objective.
we have a guy on our praise team who is not the strongest vocalist, but he’s an expressive worshiper. even though his bad notes sometimes come through loud and clear, i still want him in front of our congregation because his expressiveness inspires and challenges our members.
in this case, i chose to sacrifice sound to gain sincerity. even though we’re not achieving excellence in terms of sound, i feel like we’ve reached a greater goal because i see it as excellence in terms of worship expression…
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granted, you can throw the Psalmist’s command to “play skillfully” into the conversation, and its all over with. there’s your biblical grounds for holding try-outs.
Dang! I wish I had a really powerful “devil’s advocate” retort to all these comments, but I have to whole-heartedly agree with all of them.
Shannon - I haven’t had my coffee yet (getting ready to head to Starbucks in a few) and I clicked with you all the way through. Good stuff.
It’s all about balance, isn’t it? I had an acoustic player on our team that wasn’t all that great and I would get really frustrated at times that he couldn’t quite get the rhythm we were going for (he also played a 12-string which often didn’t quite fit what we were doing), but he was one of the best team members that we had. His heart was right — his attitude humble — and he was just such an encouragement to everyone on the team. And I have to say that we held open auditions and strove for excellence. He just happened to be the only one available when we needed a new player.
But God made it work. I never heard any complaints from anyone in the congregation, in fact always the opposite.
It is difficult to have to tell someone that they didn’t make the cut, but I try to come armed with alternatives for them in ministry — find out what their passions and experiences are. The “sexiness” (can I say that?) of the worship ministry is very attractive to those with a little talent, but it is much cooler to see one plugged into a ministry where their true gifting is allowed to flourish. That’s pursuing excellence!
Just so folks know… this was not a music related position we were specifically discussing yesterday. I don’t want to go into specifics though, for obvious reasons. That being said… these comments are great, I have passed the link on to my normally non-blog-reading coworker so she can read through them as well.
The decision in this situation was to hold open calls, no one is rejected, people will just be shifted around to a best fit.
Keep up the convo, this is great.
This is coming from someone who grew up in the music industry as a singer but 10 years ago was given an opportunity to sing on a worship team under the supervision of Fred Mckinnon. Seems as though I remember his statement to me was that he was waiting on God to confirm that I was a worshiper and not just a good singer {which I totally agreed with} before asking me to join the team there at St. Simon’s Christian Renewal…So having said all that, his decision changed my life and gave me the opportunity to grow and expand in God as a worship team member and then eventually was asked to lead worship little by little. I believe that first and foremost that my true desire was to worship God in song but I was always encouraged to expand my gifts, whether instrumental or vocally and with excellence but to always worship in spirit and in truth. Personally I felt though it was God giving me the opportunity to learn during the experience but I also had to have knowledge of music and the desire to learn true humility from those in leadership. I have to admit that Pride was something that I really had to allow God to work on in me after being in the spotlight for so long and it still tries to creep in, but I am thankful for the opportunity that I was given inspite of my lack of experience as a worship team member but I was willing to let God have his way in my life as hard as it was at times…
I believe God will tell who ever is in Leadership {if they truly want to know },who is to be in that position at that time.
I’ll always be thankful that I was involved around those who were serious about the things of God and that loved me right where I was.
Blessings,
Vicki Roberts
Wow! This is a very very sensitive subject! Most of you don’t know who I am. But I have made acquaintances with a few of you.
I am the Min of Music at Greater Works Ministries. I am the Worship leader, only keyboardist, and also the vocal instructor. I also toured with a lot of contemporary christian and gospel artists. I say that to say this, I can see from just about everyone’s point of view. There are so many great points that have been and they make me kinda question my view or opinion. I’m enjoying the conversation. Not ready to post my position on the matter, but it great to know that there is a concern.
“E”
[...] Re: Pursuing Excellence Published February 8, 2008 Worship Leading Tags: calling, Community, Excellence, Leadership, Pursuit, Questions, Service, Worship Travis posted some great questions in Pursuing Excellence: Where do you draw the line? [...]
I personally was in charge of a drama ministry at our church a couple of years ago, and I chose not to hold auditions at all. Instead I held a workshop for people who were interested and during that time we worked on skills together and talked about worship through dramatic arts. We spent some time talking about what 1Timothy 3 says. I found that the people who maybe were not as gifted in drama during that worshop began to realize that it was not the area for them, and the people whose hearts were not in the right place fell away too. Of course, there were some who were still deluded and thought they were better than they were, so I established a sort of “rotation” that allowed those people to learn some skills and work on sets, lighting, etc in the process of honing their skills. Then I added them into “minor” roles as they increased in skill.
I think the church should not just be a place for DOING art, but also a place for LEARNING art.
Having not read all the comments, I will comment only on the original post. So, here I go. I will start with my story. When I came to the church that I now lead worship at, I had not played saxophone in 5 years. I still had my sax, but it had been collecting dust for a while. Anyways, after that first visit, I got a call from the worship leader he wanted to come by the house and visit us. As we talked I, at some point, mentioned that I played the sax. He invited me to join the worship team. At that point I am convinced I would not have made the cut in any audition of any kind any where, even the audition for a worship team at a small church. However, he gave me a chance. I learned a lot in that first year, at some point I started doing some background vocals and of course I now lead worship and have discovered God is calling me to full time ministry. Now, I am not saying that God would not have called me without the worship leader letting a rather rusty sax player on his team. But, what I do believe is that God was using that time to prepare me for his call. Had the worship leader not let me on the team God would have found some other way to prepare me, but it brings up the question is that mediocre singer or guitar player a future worship leader, or worship pastor. Is God using us to mold this person into what he wants them to become? So should be do auditions, sure. Should we let the skill level of the individual be the only deciding factor? Absolutely not! This is another instance that we have to remember that it is not about us, and that God may be working in what is going on around us.
Travis, I kind of vented on this subject here: http://betterthanblank.org/?p=994
Funny how a church will insist that their pastor be trained and experienced, that their pianist actually know how to play a piano, and that their architect be the best, but anybody with a six string is supposed to be allowed to play on the worship team.
Bluegrass pickers of the highest caliber are basically lost in worship music. Classical pianists don’t work well as P&W accompanists. Imitators of Metallica and Guns and Roses don’t necessarily know how to play electric on Hillsong stuff. Dolly Parton can sing awesome notes, but she’s not going to be good in a 6 person worship team, simply because she’s a spotlight hog. Geddy Lee is a performer of awesome caliber, but I don’t want him leading worship on Sunday morning.
There’s more to it than just skill. There are many valid reasons to say to someone “this isn’t really what works for you.” Lack of skill can be a big deal, or it may not.
Bottom line Travis? If we’re loving God first, and loving people second. Then all of this is going to work out for the best. If the person desiring to be part of a team is doing this, then it can’t go anywhere else! When we all walk with this one “law” written on our hearts, the will of the Lord will be accomplished. No worries.
I realize that this particular situation isn’t praise and worship oriented, and it seems that everyone is responding with that particular focus in mind. But it really doesn’t matter, does it? What it seems that we all agree with can be applied to every single aspect of our lives: Love God, love people and have a heart for doing the will of the Lord.
Everything else is just noise, right?
good points being made here. I’ll be short:
- The bigger the pool of the talent, the higher the cut off bar.
- Be honest with people if they’re crap and think otherwise
- Always try and see where people can fit, even if it’s elsewhere
- Musicians specifically serve God and the church. A sincere but clumsy musician can still work distract a whole lot - keep things to highest standard you can maintain.
- dodginess in any area doesn’t do much for anyone.
I found your blog googling “Pursuit of Excellence.” It is very good. This is an issue we are dealing with in our church and in our school. As principal, I see too many kids saying,”I’d rather have an excellent relationship with God over excellent academics.” Adults say it differently, “I’d rather have an excellent relationship with God than do excellent work for my employer.” The problem is, this is a false choice. You can have both, and I’d maintain you must have both for even one of those choices to be true. We serve an excellent God. The degree of excellence we show in our works is a reflection of how excellent we consider Him to be.
How do you translate that to a situation? Your worship team will pull people into God’s presence a little bit less than as far as the weakest team member is able to go. God expected excellence in sacrifices like lambs and animals (no spots, bruises, etc.); He expects no less than that in our sacrifices of praise. To exalt Him means to lift the praise higher in quality.
Those not able to do so may be hurt somewhat by being cut from a team. I know. I was. However, I resolved to sing to Him alone on my own time. After about ten years, someone heard me in the congregation and asked why I wasn’t singing publicly. When I said, “I’m not good. So I just sing to God.” Apparently in those ten years, God took the little talent I had and gave me more and more as I gave it back for just Him. Then He allowed others to hear it and brought me forth for public use. And that’s what I encourage others to do today. If you don’t make the team for some activity (worship team, acting, nursery duty, etc.), do it on your own time for God alone as your audience or recipient. He’ll honor your giving of little done faithfully and give you more talents to use faithfully and bring things out in His own time. In the same way, we can work with those not able to be on the first team. We give them little opportunities to be faithful, and as they ARE faithful over time, we bring in more opportunities. Someone might be gifted in auto mechanics, but should they take apart your car first thing? That would dishonor their gifting, and it would not be one part of the body protecting a weaker part. Leviticus is a good reading ground for figuring out what God’s standards for service are This is a good question to ask. God bless you and thank you for letting me comment.
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